Was Carlos Condit's Run from Nick Diaz Bad for the Sport?

Something else that I haven't seen brought up...why did Nick not go to the ground until the last minute of the fight? He's a student of the Gracies! He's been around long enough to vary his gameplan and use his skills. This loss is not the fault of the system or what MMA is allowing...it's Diaz fault plain and simple. If you go to war equipped with a blade and a shotgun and all you choose to use is your knife while the other guys are shooting at you, it's your own fault if you get gunned down.

FistK wrote:

samger2 wrote:

I think it's just as bunk to say that Condit ran. He absolutely did not run. When Diaz put him against the cage and swung he ducked and moved and counter struck.

Kaleb Starnes ran....Condit used what's called "footwork"

I thought we all knew each other here well enough that we didnt have to clarify everything in the literal sense.

I didn't mean Condit put on his track shoes and ran from Diaz showing him his back ala Starnes the whole fight. I said if I judged it I would of given him the win, I would not have given Starnes the win...lol I guess I should of used the word back peddling, because imo that is what he did. Diaz was walking forward the entire fight and Condit was back peddling.

I will agree with you that Condit did show good foot work, but only when trapped. He did get off the cage very well the few times Diaz got him there, but the 95% of the rest of the fight I consider back peddling.

I didn't mean that either FistK...when I hear someone referring to a fighter as "running" I think of Kaleb Starnes...he actually did run from Nate...and did not engage him at all. That was my basis for comparison.

Anyways, I feel like I am getting dragged into a who do I like better pissing match or who do i think won.

To answer the question which was would fighting like Condit be bad for the sport, yes i think so.

I would definitely be a lot less annoyed with it, if it were the first Greg Jackson fight we have seen go this way. This fight felt eerily similar to Rashad vs Rampage, but with two much more skilled fighters.

Again, I was impressed with what Condit was able to do, I just think it would be a sucky direction for the sport to head, thats all.

In Summary: Congrats Carlos Condit! Eff you Greg Jackson! lol

And I'll be completely honest...I'm not a fan of Diaz...at all. So I'm probably a bit biased in my opinions...maybe that's showing through.

Krieger wrote:

Chrom wrote:

"I think I'm done with this MMA," Diaz said. "I don't need this s***."

The sport was built on two men coming together in the cage, head-to-head, and trying to do each other harm. Condit violated the implicit contract the UFC has with its fans. His performance looked more like a defensive boxer, the kind boxing "purists" love and fans hate. Carlos Condit was Ronald "Winky" Wright or Josh Clottey last night. And that's not a good thing.


source

The sport was founded on Gracie Ju Jitsu and its poster boy Royce. At the time BJJ was grab a hold of your opponant hang on on, tie him up until a mistake was made and then submit him usually with a choke or arm bar.

The sport then morphed into a "Lay and Pray" American wrestling dominated hug fest.

A guy on the mat can't whine about a wrestler taking him down and holding him down, pointing out to a victory.

When Mat Hughes was dominant in the sport any fighter going to the mat with him would be stupid and lose accordingly, any fighter standing in front of Diaz and trading punches would be stupid and lose accordingly.

Any fan with the expectation that this sport is built on standing in front of your opponant and trading punches to the face is just downright silly. Lack of fighter longevity WOULD ruin the sport.

Gracie fought within the rules, Hughes fought within the rules, Condit fought within the rules.

Not every fight is going to be a Bonnar / Griffin slugfest.

Myself ... I enjoyed the fight and Condit's excecution of a masterful game plan against a one-dimensional thug who couldn't adapt his game at all. And when he lost due to his own inadequacy he whined about how unfair it was and said he was quiting.

What's worse for the sport? A guy who wins the fight within the rules? Or a whiney little boy biitch who wants to take his ball and go home?

I just gave you a standin O in the office

samger2 wrote:

Something else that I haven't seen brought up...why did Nick not go to the ground until the last minute of the fight? He's a student of the Gracies! He's been around long enough to vary his gameplan and use his skills. This loss is not the fault of the system or what MMA is allowing...it's Diaz fault plain and simple. If you go to war equipped with a blade and a shotgun and all you choose to use is your knife while the other guys are shooting at you, it's your own fault if you get gunned down.

I think one thing everyone keeps forgetting buddy is that Diaz truly thought he was winning, because of the stalking thing and because he didnt think the leg kicks meant anything. Now, dont get me wrong I am not saying that was smart of him, but he is catching a lot of shit from people (not you) saying "well if he is too juvenile to change his tactics or adapt his gameplan then he deserves to lose"

Diaz isnt a dumb fighter. I believe he would of changed if he thought he had to. The problem was he thought he was winning. It also didnt help that his dopey brother was in his ear yelling that he won every round. Even told him he was up 3 rounds to 1 going into the 5th. I will NEVER understand why corners do that. If i thought the shit was even remotely close I would be screaming "you are losing you dumb fuck go kill him!" Then again thats probably why I am not a cornerman...lol

samger2 wrote:

No offense Chrom...I don't see your point with that statement. I don't really care who Condit fought...if he fought someone that was a striker/power bomb thrower and he took them out of their game and beat them....my tune would stay the same.

It was directed at Kriegs, he has a pure and true hatred for Diaz so no matter what he is blinded. But on the flip side he loves Tank. So I am simply asking him to replace the opponent to some one he likes to see if he still feels the same.

No No No ..... I like Nick .... Nick has been on my fav lists since the gogo plata on Gomi..... but what I do hate is the behaviour outside the ring.... and whining about the loss just sounds so....
Sonnen'esq.

Oh... and I do believe Tank could still kick Nick's asss even in his advanced age and physical condition.

I've always liked Nick even when he was losing.... I just don't like him being a little biitch.... Nick stfu and fight.

Heh so technically this DID happen to a fighter I like.

Oh.... and when Mir beat Tank with a fukkking TOEHOLD I did cry out "oh the unfairness of it all.... beaten by a toe hold." That hurt a whole lot more than this fight...

Why did I put all my follars on Condit? Cause I knew Nick has always had a great deal of trouble with smart fighters.... I hope that Nick learns comes back and wins..... (but not against GSP cause Rush is gonna K him TFO) !

The true test of a fighter has always been "how does he come back after a loss" .... so far Nick aint doing so well.

FistK wrote:

samger2 wrote:

Something else that I haven't seen brought up...why did Nick not go to the ground until the last minute of the fight? He's a student of the Gracies! He's been around long enough to vary his gameplan and use his skills. This loss is not the fault of the system or what MMA is allowing...it's Diaz fault plain and simple. If you go to war equipped with a blade and a shotgun and all you choose to use is your knife while the other guys are shooting at you, it's your own fault if you get gunned down.

I think one thing everyone keeps forgetting buddy is that Diaz truly thought he was winning, because of the stalking thing and because he didnt think the leg kicks meant anything. Now, dont get me wrong I am not saying that was smart of him, but he is catching a lot of shit from people (not you) saying "well if he is too juvenile to change his tactics or adapt his gameplan then he deserves to lose"

Diaz isnt a dumb fighter. I believe he would of changed if he thought he had to. The problem was he thought he was winning. It also didnt help that his dopey brother was in his ear yelling that he won every round. Even told him he was up 3 rounds to 1 going into the 5th. I will NEVER understand why corners do that. If i thought the shit was even remotely close I would be screaming "you are losing you dumb fuck go kill him!" Then again thats probably why I am not a cornerman...lol

So in essence...Nick did the EXACT same thing that Carlos did. He stuck with a tactic that would get him the win vs trying to secure it by going to the ground?

Sorry man...not trying to be confrontational or argue with you. That just stuck out to me.

I think I've beaten this dead horse long enough. Congrats to Carlos, everyone brings up good points in the debate and I respect them all

samger2 wrote:

I think I've beaten this dead horse long enough. Congrats to Carlos, everyone brings up good points in the debate and I respect them all

ARE YOU KIDDING? What if they fought fights like this?


NICK: "Carlos you will probably have a good defence against my main skill set, I will conceed a unanimous decision to you."

CARLOS: "Nick I think you are correct in this regard, I accept the victory but only as a split decision because you would obviously be a threat to my countering technique."

DANA TO THE FANS: "Both Nick and Carlos have agreed to the outcome of this fight therefore we have accepted Carlos as winner by split decision. I would like to thank Nick and Carlos for such a frank discussion and we shall now move onto our next five round championship discussion between Fedor and Brock.

FEDOR: Fukkk that .... I'm outta here >>>>>>>>>>>>> zoom

samger2 wrote:

And I'll be completely honest...I'm not a fan of Diaz...at all. So I'm probably a bit biased in my opinions...maybe that's showing through.

ya think!

samger2 wrote:

FistK wrote:

samger2 wrote:

Something else that I haven't seen brought up...why did Nick not go to the ground until the last minute of the fight? He's a student of the Gracies! He's been around long enough to vary his gameplan and use his skills. This loss is not the fault of the system or what MMA is allowing...it's Diaz fault plain and simple. If you go to war equipped with a blade and a shotgun and all you choose to use is your knife while the other guys are shooting at you, it's your own fault if you get gunned down.

I think one thing everyone keeps forgetting buddy is that Diaz truly thought he was winning, because of the stalking thing and because he didnt think the leg kicks meant anything. Now, dont get me wrong I am not saying that was smart of him, but he is catching a lot of shit from people (not you) saying "well if he is too juvenile to change his tactics or adapt his gameplan then he deserves to lose"

Diaz isnt a dumb fighter. I believe he would of changed if he thought he had to. The problem was he thought he was winning. It also didnt help that his dopey brother was in his ear yelling that he won every round. Even told him he was up 3 rounds to 1 going into the 5th. I will NEVER understand why corners do that. If i thought the shit was even remotely close I would be screaming "you are losing you dumb fuck go kill him!" Then again thats probably why I am not a cornerman...lol

So in essence...Nick did the EXACT same thing that Carlos did. He stuck with a tactic that would get him the win vs trying to secure it by going to the ground?

Sorry man...not trying to be confrontational or argue with you. That just stuck out to me.

Yes...But his tactic was trying to finish. Condit's was not.

Which leads us back to the question posed in this thread.

^
So if Condit landed more strikes and more power strikes than Diaz, how do you come to the conclusion that Diaz was trying to finish the fight and Condit was not trying to finish the fight.
Possibly because of Nicks 1 submission attempt in the 5th round?

I just want to put out there my final note on this topic as well, a lot of people putting out some great points; that being said here it goes.

If all UFC fights go this way, it will most definitely be bad for the sport; but people will still watch.
But it is styles that make fights, we don't expect this kind of fight when fighters with very different styles are fighting.
It in this instance when the fighters are so alike that you have to anticipate one of them doing something out of character to improve there chacnes of victory; going away from there typical style.
We have seen it before guys, it is a rarity as much as some think that it is becoming common place.
Greg Jackson and his team have a lot to do with most of them turning out this way, so its a good thing some of the marquee fighters have left his gym.
On that note, what do people think about Jon Jones, is he point fighting? I guess the difference is he finishes fights for the most part.

As Samger said, great debate guys, no disrespect intended from me in any posts towards any of you.

ok i dont even know what to say to that. if you watched the fight and what you saw was condit trying to finish nick then we just see fights differently. which is probably why we are on opposite sides of this argument. i just did not see it that way at all.

like i said if i was judging it live i would of given condit the win...but that still doesnt have to mean i like the way he fought.

I LOVE when we get topics like this ... it makes the board more lively .... yet respect is maintained.

Good Job guys...

Based on those numbers, I posted this in the other thread... and I feel its completely sound...

Quote :

Round One
Condit landed 30 strikes vs Diaz landing 28
Condit was back pedaling the entire round and not being the aggressor = Diaz

Round Two
Condit landed 29 strikes vs Diaz landing 35
Diaz pressured, pursued and attacked the entire round whilst scoring = Diaz

Round Three
Condit landed 33 strikes vs Diaz landing 24
Condit was constantly moving and using counter attacks = Condit

Round Four
Condit landed 37 strikes vs Diaz landing 11
Condit had a great fuckin round still moving but engaging and outstriking = Condit

Round Five
Condit landed 30 strikes vs Diaz landing 19
Condit ran the whole round while throwing those strikes and still got taken down by Diaz. Diaz took his back, went submission hunting and looked for the finish = Diaz


Thats my take on it.

Am I reading those numbers right?
Diaz landed more head punches. Diaz landed more body punches. Condit won the fight on "leg jabs". Not sure I even know what a "leg jab" is.

That is correct sir.

yup leg jab ftw.......i think its funny that people (not exclusivly folks here on this site) are saying that diaz didnt land anything significant and condit landed more power shots.......did anybody see the post fight presser? condits eye was still bleeding.....it looked like they plugged it up in the locker room but during the presser the dam broke and his face started leaking..if you watch under his right eye, you can see the spot get bigger and it looks like it wants to drip!

Bleacher Report Chrom? Come on, you're better than that!

Here's my take, I actually enjoyed the fight! Diaz was stalking Condit the whole time throwing bombs and nasty body punches while Carlos did his best Machida impression: evade and counter. And I damn near jumped out of my seat in the 5th when Diaz hooked up that body triangle and almost choked him out. Seriously guys, these two went 5 rounds at full speed how is no one else impressed by that?

Condit wasn't his usual aggressive self, but that game plan didn't really work out well for Daley or Cyborg now did it? And Condit didn't exactly play a safe lay and pray fight either. He eeked out a close decision...if Diaz hit 1 more takedown or 1 more combo in a round he probably would have taken it.

As long as Condit goes back to living up to his nickname I won't fault him for this fight. He knew what he had to do to win and did it (barely). Thing is, if Diaz won I wouldn't have been surprised either. I just don't get how anyone is outraged by Condit's performance - he did damage, Nick's face was marked up pretty good - it wasn't his usual balls to the wall blitz but it was interesting and he got the win.

Just so you guys know, I obviously watched this fight, but decided it's best if I just hang back and ghost. I am watching this debate, and it's fucking awesome. Well done!!!

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