The Legal Gray Area Of Anderson Silva’s Knee On Chael Sonnen

Quote :

Blink and you might have missed it. Even viewing replays from the other angles UFC afforded us to watch, opinion varies on the legality of Anderson Silva’s knee against Chael Sonnen during the main event of UFC 148, and is especially dependent on what quality and speed you watch the replays in. Officially, referee Yves Lavigne did not call the knee illegal, and the replays were enough to satisfy the UFC broadcast team of Joe Rogan and Mike Goldberg, as well as UFC president Dana White. The knee hit Sonnen’s chest, case closed.

Well … not quite. Watching the replay myself at various speeds in the best quality available to me, it seems clear that the point of Anderson Silva’s knee did not hit any part of the head of a seated Chael Sonnen. As best as I could make out, the point of the knee hit the top of Chael Sonnen’s chest, from anywhere between the Suprasternal notch to the mid-sternum (or there abouts). That’s the point of the knee, though.

Because of the anatomical V shape a bent knee makes, the upper side of this V — where the front quadriceps meet the top of the knee — can make contact with an opponent’s head before or during a strike aimed at the upper chest, because of how the head naturally protrudes beyond the upper chest. And in the case of Anderson Silva, this upper side of his knee has to make contact with the head of Chael Sonnen for the point of his knee to land where it did on Sonnen’s chest, and this incidental blow to the head is exacerbated as the fence prevented Sonnen from recoiling back on impact.

Some might question whether it matters if the lower thigh made impact with Sonnen’s head, because it wasn’t the point of the knee and so wouldn’t have done as much damage, but I think the point is being missed with this attitude. We know padded gloves protect the hands of the fighter throwing a punch, and not the opponent receiving it, so arguably the natural padding of leg muscle benefits Silva more than it does Sonnen. Even if you don’t want to buy that argument, if a roundhouse kick was thrown at the head of a seated Sonnen, but only the thigh makes contact while the point of the knee, shin or instep miss, it would still be deemed as a kick to the head of a downed opponent.

Others might be quick to point out the intent is different, with Silva’s intent to hit the chest, and the head of Sonnen ended up being collateral damage. But even inside leg kicks that land on the inner thigh but ride up into the groin more often than not cause a fight to be paused by a referee, who will give the opponent time to recover, even though the intent was to kick the leg.



Yves Lavigne didn’t call the knee Anderson Silva threw against Chael Sonnen illegal, but that doesn’t mean the call was correct. It’s also an incredibly tricky call to make without pausing the action and to check the instant replay (which NSAC approved the use of nearly 3 years ago), or without better slow motion cameras on hand.

I won’t speculate whether the knee being called legal or illegal, and Sonnen given some time to recover would have made any eventual difference to the outcome, as that’s largely irrelevant to this article. I honestly didn’t care who won last night. But because this situation is such a gray area, I’d either expect fighters to exploit it a lot more and point to the Silva vs Sonnen II fight as a precedent...
Read more: http://cagedfire.com/archives/4572/#ixzz209VU4CA7

What are your thoughts?

this is silly

knee was all good and no grey area!

i see it as chael had a good first round but without the juice just didnt have the same fire he had in the first fight.....also anderson was able to fight off all takedown attempts early in the second forcing chael to swing wildly and blindly...theres a good pic of blind swinging on ufc.com


chael took the beat down like a man and I wish everybody else could do the same!

How is this silly? It is a grey area, other wise so many other sites and fans wouldn't be saying anything. I thought it was a well thought out article which makes some valid arguments... which I assumed would spark debate... not "Oh can we get over this fight already... I mean it was two days ago."

I don't mean to be disrespectful because, yes, this is a very well thought out and put together article, but I'm with norcalmatt, only I'll take it a step further...this is bullshit. I can't believe we have to break down the strike to the point of how the head naturally protrudes and having the upper side of the knee make contact to the head in order for the spot that it landed on the chest to have actually landed on the chest.

In layman's terms the quadriceptical of the unicornical cyclature means that the formidable process of the aforementioned "Silva strike" as otherwise noted in the hypocrisy of villianism toward relapse of the gargantuan negligence provides substantial obligatory and post modern evidence of the contractual dilligence on ones part...that being Anderson Silva.

For the love of all that's holy, Chael got beat twice...I'd prefer to have it been a stone cold knock out, but he kneed him and dropped bombs till it was called a tko...can we get inspector gadget off the case?

See i told you guys Bispings knee to Rivera was legal......you may all appologize to me now.

But serously this is a bit dumb of a rule. If you can not knee a downed opponet than all of the knee counts not just part of it. I dont think it would have changed much and to be honest chael got into that problem for doing some thing really out of his area of expertise. he should have kept to the basics that almost won him the fight the first time around. which is what it looked like in round 1. Chael than trips over andersons leg and falls to the ground. Plus Chaels back spining elbow or fist what ever it was he was trying his form looked awful. If he missed silva all together and even missing silvas leg he still would have triped over his own feet with the way he was spinning. Shonnie Carter spinning back fist it was not.

LOL
Yeah, sorry Chrom, but I'll take it a step even further:
This is ridiculous. Or even embarassing.

This whole idea screams desperate denial.

If we're gonna try to cheapen this win with overly thought out technicalities that mean next to nothing, then we're gonna be here all year disregarding every TKO or submission win that ever was and ever will be.
Come on. Let it go.

Gecko wrote:

If you can not knee a downed opponet than all of the knee counts not just part of it.

thats just it.....no part of the knee hit his face...if anything it was the thigh





aggressive tea bagging!

samger2 wrote:

I don't mean to be disrespectful because, yes, this is a very well thought out and put together article, but I'm with norcalmatt, only I'll take it a step further...this is bullshit. I can't believe we have to break down the strike to the point of how the head naturally protrudes and having the upper side of the knee make contact to the head in order for the spot that it landed on the chest to have actually landed on the chest.

In layman's terms the quadriceptical of the unicornical cyclature means that the formidable process of the aforementioned "Silva strike" as otherwise noted in the hypocrisy of villianism toward relapse of the gargantuan negligence provides substantial obligatory and post modern evidence of the contractual dilligence on ones part...that being Anderson Silva.

For the love of all that's holy, Chael got beat twice...I'd prefer to have it been a stone cold knock out, but he kneed him and dropped bombs till it was called a tko...can we get inspector gadget off the case?

This might be the funniest post ever. Unicornical? I'm using that. I almost thought Samger's uncle died and left him a huge inheritance from the Nigerian lottery.

I didnt take Chrom's article as whining about the loss, but more about the discussion that there are too many grey area rules in mma.

Chael lost that part is over.

Why can't we discuss the fact that the rule is weird? "The knee hit the chest...END OF DISCUSSION!" lol

It's going to get to the point in here where the only thing we can discuss is Bisping hatred funny facebook posts soon.

DEP wrote:

samger2 wrote:

I don't mean to be disrespectful because, yes, this is a very well thought out and put together article, but I'm with norcalmatt, only I'll take it a step further...this is bullshit. I can't believe we have to break down the strike to the point of how the head naturally protrudes and having the upper side of the knee make contact to the head in order for the spot that it landed on the chest to have actually landed on the chest.

In layman's terms the quadriceptical of the unicornical cyclature means that the formidable process of the aforementioned "Silva strike" as otherwise noted in the hypocrisy of villianism toward relapse of the gargantuan negligence provides substantial obligatory and post modern evidence of the contractual dilligence on ones part...that being Anderson Silva.

For the love of all that's holy, Chael got beat twice...I'd prefer to have it been a stone cold knock out, but he kneed him and dropped bombs till it was called a tko...can we get inspector gadget off the case?

This might be the funniest post ever. Unicornical? I'm using that. I almost thought Samger's uncle died and left him a huge inheritance from the Nigerian lottery.

haha...thanks. That all came out after a shot of whiskey and a couple beers. And the unicornical comment is to allude to the fact of how embarrasing and mystical it is that someone feels they need to go to the extreme of disecting the knee that ended the fight.

Speaking of this what're things you guys wish were allowed more in MMA.

Personally I want knees on the ground, headbutts, and kicks on the ground allowed.

I'd also think that you should be able to grab the cage while throwing kicks.

I didn't really mean to shut down the idea of debate. That's not it at all.

I mean to shut down the idea of this debate......because it's stupid.

There are definitely weird rules in MMA with a lot of gray area, but this isn't one of them.
Silva knee'd him in the body. That's crystal clear. I'm sorry, but it is.
If there was some semblance of a glancing brush of an upper thigh to the face, then that's just part of the game.
How in the fuck would you change that rule anyway? It would have to be no more knees allowed period. And eventually no more strikes allowed period. And finally no more actual fighting allowed period. We would eventually just concede to watching a literal chess match, where fighters take turns applying techniques to each other with a stoppage in between every one. You know, just to make sure it doesn't get out of hand and turn into an actual physical competition.

Let's be realistic; if we're gonna tear this down to the finest dissection of what happened or could've happened or might've happened, we're eventually gonna devolve into doing the same thing for every fight. And trust me, we could find a similar so called "infraction" in every fight.
EVERY fight.

And if that's where we end up, then what's the point of even watching this thing enjoyably?

That's why I don't want to provide steam to debates like this; because they destroy the spirit of the sport. Not because I don't want to debate altogether.

Triggerman99 wrote:

I didn't really mean to shut down the idea of debate. That's not it at all.

I mean to shut down the idea of this debate......because it's stupid.

There are definitely weird rules in MMA with a lot of gray area, but this isn't one of them.
Silva knee'd him in the body. That's crystal clear. I'm sorry, but it is.
If there was some semblance of a glancing brush of an upper thigh to the face, then that's just part of the game.
How in the fuck would you change that rule anyway? It would have to be no more knees allowed period. And eventually no more strikes allowed period. And finally no more actual fighting allowed period. We would eventually just concede to watching a literal chess match, where fighters take turns applying techniques to each other with a stoppage in between every one. You know, just to make sure it doesn't get out of hand and turn into an actual physical competition.

Let's be realistic; if we're gonna tear this down to the finest dissection of what happened or could've happened or might've happened, we're eventually gonna devolve into doing the same thing for every fight. And trust me, we could find a similar so called "infraction" in every fight.
EVERY fight.

And if that's where we end up, then what's the point of even watching this thing enjoyably?

That's why I don't want to provide steam to debates like this; because they destroy the spirit of the sport. Not because I don't want to debate altogether.

Ok here are the rules
16) Kicking the head of a grounded opponent - illegal
17) Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent - illegal
There is no questions there, those were pulled directly from the book.

Now, we all know that the ball of the knee hit the upper sternum, but many people agree that the lower thigh, directly above the knee, did in fact hit Chael in the chin. Many of those folks are saying its "collateral damage" the strike wasn't intended to hit the head, it just happened to be in the way.

But when an inner thigh kick rolls up and hits the groin, is it not a groin shot? Does the afflicted fighter not get his 5 minutes because it wasn't intended as a groin kick? No, 9 times out of ten the Ref will motion for a stoppage.

So I guess my question is, if it wasn't a knee to the head wouldn't then be considered a kick at least? That is what we call strikes thrown with a leg after all...
or should we plan on seeing more thigh strikes to the head of a downed opponent in more fights?
Hey, believe me I'm more than ok with it being used, but it needs to be made apparent and fully clarified that you can in fact strike with that area of your body to the head of a downed opponent.
Or is it just as some people say "collateral damage" and will only be let to slide when in a "collateral damage" type situation?

Either way it needs to be clarified in the rule book IMO

Chrom wrote:

Triggerman99 wrote:

I didn't really mean to shut down the idea of debate. That's not it at all.

I mean to shut down the idea of this debate......because it's stupid.

There are definitely weird rules in MMA with a lot of gray area, but this isn't one of them.
Silva knee'd him in the body. That's crystal clear. I'm sorry, but it is.
If there was some semblance of a glancing brush of an upper thigh to the face, then that's just part of the game.
How in the fuck would you change that rule anyway? It would have to be no more knees allowed period. And eventually no more strikes allowed period. And finally no more actual fighting allowed period. We would eventually just concede to watching a literal chess match, where fighters take turns applying techniques to each other with a stoppage in between every one. You know, just to make sure it doesn't get out of hand and turn into an actual physical competition.

Let's be realistic; if we're gonna tear this down to the finest dissection of what happened or could've happened or might've happened, we're eventually gonna devolve into doing the same thing for every fight. And trust me, we could find a similar so called "infraction" in every fight.
EVERY fight.

And if that's where we end up, then what's the point of even watching this thing enjoyably?

That's why I don't want to provide steam to debates like this; because they destroy the spirit of the sport. Not because I don't want to debate altogether.

Ok here are the rules
16) Kicking the head of a grounded opponent - illegal
17) Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent - illegal
There is no questions there, those were pulled directly from the book.

Now, we all know that the ball of the knee hit the upper sternum, but many people agree that the lower thigh, directly above the knee, did in fact hit Chael in the chin. Many of those folks are saying its "collateral damage" the strike wasn't intended to hit the head, it just happened to be in the way.

But when an inner thigh kick rolls up and hits the groin, is it not a groin shot? Does the afflicted fighter not get his 5 minutes because it wasn't intended as a groin kick? No, 9 times out of ten the Ref will motion for a stoppage.

So I guess my question is, if it wasn't a knee to the head wouldn't then be considered a kick at least? That is what we call strikes thrown with a leg after all...
or should we plan on seeing more thigh strikes to the head of a downed opponent in more fights?
Hey, believe me I'm more than ok with it being used, but it needs to be made apparent and fully clarified that you can in fact strike with that area of your body to the head of a downed opponent.
Or is it just as some people say "collateral damage" and will only be let to slide when in a "collateral damage" type situation?

Either way it needs to be clarified in the rule book IMO

OK, I see where you are going with this, but one of us is missing the point of the arguement (or both of us LOL);

The "thigh strike" to the head was no more than glancing; nowhere near a significant strike, or "collateral damage". It was nothing. Zero. Insignificant.

The slight thigh-bump to the chin had no bearing whatsoever on the outcome of the fight, and the ref correctly paid no attention to it.

And before you try to throw a gif out here of Sonnen's head supposedly snapping violently backward by sheer upper-thigh force, you should post a link of someone spotting a butterfly from a park bench, because the head-snap would be about the same speed.

THIS WHOLE THREAD HAS TO BE A JOKE .... RIGHT? Sonnen got beat and beat easily.

Heh Sonnen was scared shitless going into that fight.... he's happy with the loss and thanking his gods that he won't be put in that position again.

He got off lucky and he knows it.....

Take Anderson up on his offer and go to his house for a BB'Q.....

Fire your manager for making an appeal cause you might just get a rematch.

Me ... I was praying Anderson would let Sonnen get up so he could beat him to a bloodier pulp!

Krieger wrote:

Sonnen got beat and beat easily.

Totally disagree with that.

Just wait until the story breaks this afternoon about how Anderson is, in fact, not Brazilian and not a man... My sources tell me that he is a Nigerian woman named Chinyeri and has been taking illegal hormone therapy for decades... There is also said to be links between Chinyeri and the illegal acquisition of millions of electronics that are used to fund her project. Something tells me Dana has been in on this the whole time. Listen, I'm not saying it's aliens... but it's aliens.

FistK wrote:

Krieger wrote:

Sonnen got beat and beat easily.

Totally disagree with that.

Heh well at least you didn't disagree with the rest of what I wrote.

FistK wrote:

Krieger wrote:

Sonnen got beat and beat easily.

Totally disagree with that.

Well then please, explain how a TKO is not "beat easily".
I agree that Sonnen dominated the first round, but the finish was in fact easy.

Triggerman99 wrote:

FistK wrote:

Krieger wrote:

Sonnen got beat and beat easily.

Totally disagree with that.

Well then please, explain how a TKO is not "beat easily".
I agree that Sonnen dominated the first round, but the finish was in fact easy.

Yeah, I totally don't get this angle. He didnt say the finish was easy he said he beat him easy. Did Mike Russow beat Todd Duffee easy? It was a one punch KO. Thats about as easy as it gets right? lol

Chael dominated the first round, was doing ok in the second, slipped and fell, got pounced on and it was over. He lost for sure. I am definitely not someone who is going jump up and down and scream about illegal knees or anderson cheating or anything, I just dont see how it can be seen as easy.

Krieger wrote:

FistK wrote:

Krieger wrote:

Sonnen got beat and beat easily.

Totally disagree with that.

Heh well at least you didn't disagree with the rest of what I wrote.

I didn't read the rest.

I agree that he FINISHED easily, but didn't necessarily win easily. That first round sucked for Anderson.

samger2 wrote:

I agree that he FINISHED easily, but didn't necessarily win easily. That first round sucked for Anderson.

Yeah infortunately for Chael fans he always seems to finish easily. Like Lindland said "He is an awesome athlete and wrestler, unfortunately he just isnt very tough."

Heh before we go giving Sonnen too much credit... all he did on the ground was basically hold Anderson there for most of the round while doing very little damage. Anderson had great wrist and posture control over Sonnen and popped up quick after the bell.

In the second Sonnen had nothing for Anderson's stand-up and couldn't take him down. We could all see Sonnen's "oh shit" look on his face and that's why he tried that now famous "Sonnen spin-o-rama" move.

After the "Sonnen spin-o-rama" Anderson jumped on Sonnen and beat him senseless in what 15 seconds?

Looked pretty easy to me.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree, because i totally do not get that angle at all.

What did Sonnen do in round 1 of this fight that was any different than what gsp does in every round of every fight, yet he is considered top 3 in the world? I am not a Sonnen nut hugger at all and truthfully I think he folds like a tent when in trouble, but people who dont like him dont seem capable of debating objectively about him.

He won the first round EASILY. He was doing well enough in the second. He had Silva pressed against the cage and wasnt doing much, but once again any different than what couture did in so many of his fights? In the standup, no shit he wasnt as good, he slipped, got crushed by a knee and it was over.